TheSpookyGhost
Congressperson
Running for President of Virtual Congress; Founder and Current Leader of the Gateway to Sanity Party
Posts: 45
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Post by TheSpookyGhost on May 16, 2018 21:07:29 GMT -5
Everyone here already knows that I'm the most far right of all the candidates running here on the issue of immigration, so it would probably be more productive for me to address my fellow candidate's arguments. I will briefly mention, though, that I support a hard cap of 100,000 immigrants annually and the creation of a deportation force that President Trump campaigned on. I challenge wvamerican to debate me on this subject; after all, this is supposed to be a debate. The first argument that wvamerican presents, that America was "built by immigrants" is so cliched and overused that I already have a stock response ready for it. America also happened to be built by slaves. Do you want to bring back slavery as well? As for human rights, what rights are we violating by denying entry of a person from Mexico? Mexico is a developing country as well as a democracy. Its leadership is not tyrannical nor oppressive. The act of immigration is not a human right in and of itself. In fact, it is antithetical to the human rights of the native inhabitants (aka US citizens) as established by Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points. Of those is the right of every people to the self-determination. It is a word so diluted down in modern international politics that it can hardly be seen as a shadow of its former self, but in its original incarnation, it was used to grant a multitude of ethnic groups the right to their own country. Now, America is obviously a multiethnic country, and it would not be remotely plausible to grant self-determination to each ethnic group, but we as Americans do have the right to determine who comes into our country and by extension the composition of our nation. Finally, you say that immigrants make taxpayers' lives easier, but that's a crock of poop. Immigration will inevitably raise the GDP due to higher total output, but immigrants from Mexico contribute far less to the GDP than the average citizen, so they lower the GDP per capita. Total GDP benefits only corporations and investors. Your first and third "strategic changes" are self-contradicting. How can you have a merit-based system if there are no caps? If you let in everyone, then merit has no relevance. In response to your first proposed "strategic change" (we need immigrants to fill our workforce because Americans are aging) that is again a crock of poop. Firstly, I point you back to my earlier analogy to slavery. The slave-owners then also said that slaves were a necessary component of our workforce. Then as now, the wealthy need slaves to make them rich and are refusing to let go of them. Secondly, birth rates are falling all around the world, and that's a good thing. Fewer people means less competition for the finite amount of resources we have on this Earth and an improved quality of life. Eventually, as the third world moves through the demographic transition, we will run out of immigrants to bring in, and it is best to adapt to such a situation ASAP. Lastly, bringing in foreigners to replace American workers is called demographic displacement, and it amounts to nothing less than the slow but steady eradication of the native population. In response to your proposal of a guest worker program, you know full well that people who come over on such programs never leave. The guest worker program of the last century we terrible mistakes and the root of our current illegal immigrant problem. Finally, a path to residency only serves as incentive for more illegal immigrants to flood in. It undermines our entire legal system when we allow a certain group of people to blatantly flout our legal system for, dare I say it, political expedience. Reagan tried to do this in the 80s, and look where we are now? Right back where we were before. America is not the world's welfare office. When Trump promised tough measure on illegal immigration, illegal immigration plummeted last year. Now that they've seen the lack of political will to actually do anything, illegal immigration has spiked back up by 230%. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/13/trumps-illegal-immigrant-zero-tolerance-border-pol/We must deport them all, and we should start by bringing back Bush's Operation Streamline that reduced illegal immigration by 95%. In fact, that would be my first executive order as President. To address your first point that immigration is similar to the institution of slavery in my logic, my argument for human rights provides evidence against your claim. I do not claim that immigration itself is a human right. Rather, each person is endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and property. Each person owns themselves, and in doing so they have the right to free association and contract. Strict immigration laws violate these rights by not allowing employers and employees to enter into such associations and formulate such contracts. To address your second point that my first and third proposal are contradictory, I must explain that the merit-based system will provide a threshold that applicants must reach to be issued a visa upon clearing a background check. There will not be a limit to the number of visas issued, but that is by no means contradicting the point-system. Your claim that the rich are exploiting the poor is a Marxist claim that originates with the labor theory of value. If we consider that the value of every product is the amount of work that we put into it then any profit margin is exploitation. However, we have long debunked the labor theory of value with the Marginalist Revolution of supply and demand. You stated that declining birth rates are a good thing, and in part you are correct. However, if a labor force contracts without a subsequent increase in productivity and you will have a contraction in economic output and a decline in the standard of living. Productivity growth has been steady at low rates for several decades. The best way to increase productivity is to increase the education of the public, increase the health of the public, and foster an entrepreneur environment. Immigrants are far and wide healthier than American citizens and you cannot build an environment for entrepreneurs by building walls in the market. Next, you say that total GDP only helps corporations and investors, but this shows a lack of understanding of what Gross Domestic Product is. GDP is a macroeconomic indicator for the size of the economy. It includes four major components: private consumption, private investment/savings, government expenditures, and net exports. Personal consumption reflects what the average American consumes in the market, as does next exports. Investments are for investors and corporations, but also for the average American saving for retirement. While some us may look down upon building the stock of capital, but it is what directly determines the future growth of employment, wages, and the standard of living. Next, to address your claim that immigrants are a drain on taxpayers and the economy. Unlike popular claims, immigrants are complimentary rather than substitutes for native workers. In fact, all else equal, English proficiency increases wages by 21%. Further, they drive up the value of property, which benefits homeowners. Each of the 40 million immigrants in the US boosts the value of housing in their local county by 11.6 cents. This in total, increases the taxable housing value by $3.7 trillion, which helps state and local governments remain solvent. Further, immigrants below 200% of the poverty line use less likely to use public assistance than native citizens, and when they utilize these services, they do so at a lower dollar amount. A 2000 study in LA found that immigrants in the 18-64 age bracket only consumed 33% of the healthcare that native citizens of the same age bracket did. Now let's look at the overall cost versus benefits of immigrants. Immigrants made up 14.7% of the total contributions of Medicare Plan A while only consuming 7.9% of the Medicare Plan A budget. This aggregates to a net gain of $13.8 billion. Native citizens contribute a net loss of $30.9 billion. Among Medicare Plan B, immigrants spend per capita $1,465 less than native citizens. The Social Security Administration's actuaries ran a study that found that a moratorium on immigration would increase the debt of social security by 31% while an increase in immigration by 33% would reduce the total unfunded liabilities by 10%. However, most immigrants do not stay long enough to collect the benefits are authorized to receive, 30% in total. Finally running the models on a global scale, following the assumption that you listed that poor immigrants move to the rich countries until we run out of immigrants; freely allowing this to happen would boost Global GDP by 50-150% or $40 to $120 trillion. So, under my plan of opening immigration, we actually reduce our unfunded liabilities and put us on a more solvent path as a country; we grow wealthier as a populous, and we come to have new opportunities. Under the drastic reductions in immigration that you are calling for, we actually are going to contract the economy, increase our insolvency, and block the roads to prosperity that this country needs. Finally, to your demographic displacement, this only becomes a concern if one wishes to prevent diversity. This xenophobic attitude is not something that debating will convince the either of us. It is how one views the world. In regards to your argument for freedom of association, it is true that individuals have the right to associate with whoever they want. However, Americans collectively also have the right to not associate with whoever we don't want to, and we have shown our desire to set a limit on the number of new people we associate with each year by creating an immigration cap through our elected representatives. Now, you might say that individuals who don't want to associate with immigrants can just avoid them. However, this is a very narrow view of association. Once a person immigrates to our country, that person becomes an American, and we as Americans are all connected, all associated with one another by the bonds of our nationality. It is our human right, as the citizens of this nation, to determine who can and cannot be called an American. In regards to your third point, that immigrants are not being exploited, I must disagree, and your attempt to paint me as a Communist is quite frankly a ridiculous strawman because I have never expressed any sort of sympathy towards the LTV. Prior to NAFTA, Mexican farmers had a much higher standard of living due to government subsidies. NAFTA ended those subsidies and allowed cheap American produce (still backed by American subsidies) to flood the Mexican market, putting Mexican farmers out of business and forcing them to come across the border to work under substandard conditions for the same corporations that benefited from and lobbied for NAFTA. Hence, exploited. These immigrants are equivalent to the slaves of the 18th century and give corporations cheap labor (often below the minimum wage) so that they can avoid paying real wages to real Americans. You state that "the best way to increase productivity is to increase the education of the public, increase the health of the public, and foster an entrepreneur environment". Yet immigrants from Mexico, illegal or otherwise, often lack even the most basic education, and predominantly Hispanic immigrant communities have a host of public health issues despite your inaccurate claim to the contrary. Finally, an entrepreneur environment must be made to benefit Americans. What good is a business that does well if it is built on the backs of immigrant (slave) labor rather than that of Americans? I know full well what GDP is. However, GDP by itself is not an indicator of the standard of living. For instance, Japan has a GDP less than 1/4 that of the US, but the standard of living is comparable and arguably even better. The important measure is GDP per capita, and Hispanic immigrants unarguably bring down the per capita GDP because they produce less value to the economy than the average American. A rise in GDP without a corresponding rise in GDP per capita benefits corporation the most. Next, I will address your claims of the benefits to Americans. You state that English proficiency increases wages by 21%, but it isn't as though English-speaking people are suddenly making more money. Rather, Hispanic immigrants who don't speak English proficiently receive (and accept) lower wages, taking jobs away from Americans. You state that immigration drives up home prices. This is true only of wealthy immigrants from Asia who actually have the capital to buy property, and it often leads to the displacement of local residents. Hispanic immigrants, on the other hand, tend to be poor and reduce the property value in any area they move to en masse. Looking beyond property prices, poor immigrants don't make enough money to pay taxes. Take a look at Hazleton, where the population increased by 50% due to mass Hispanic immigration over a short period of time, while the tax revenue remained the same. The city also had to create additional programs for these immigrants, including a $1.5 million ESL program. Tucker Carlson did a great piece on this, and I recommend you watch it. (https://youtu.be/UHbXX2YKgtY) Finally, I suspect that the studies you fail to cite for the reduced welfare usage lump together all sorts of immigrants: legal and illegal, and across all races, making their conclusions meaningless As to your final point, the right of a people to their own nation is a human right: the right to self-determination. That demographic displacement is a gross violation of human rights is not up for debate.
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Post by wvamerican on May 16, 2018 23:24:15 GMT -5
First, your response to the freedom of association takes a Hobbesian view of civil, rather than natural, rights. This is fine, though it would explain why we are in disagreement. I tend to favor the view of John Locke, that people have the natural right to life, liberty, and property. I also hold to the view that rights exist to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. I do not believe that the majority can violate the negative rights of the individual. I disagree with the existence of a collective right to association. I support individualism, not collectivism. If that is what you believe, then I respect that, but we will be in disagreement.
Next, to your argument of exploitation. I did not call you a communist. I simply stated, that the actual usage of exploitation began with the economic theories of Karl Marx. He took the labor theory of value that was used by Adam Smith, David Hume, and David Ricardo and carried it to its logical conclusion. Using that theory does not make you a communist. There are many respectable liberals and conservatives who believe in that theory. However, in economics, that theory has long been dismissed due to the introduction of the Marginalist Revolution which introduced supply and demand that we know today.
As to your argument that Mexicans are worse off today than they were in 1994 (when NAFTA took effect); the inflation adjusted real GDP per capita of Mexico was $8,800 according to the OECD GDP Data in 1994. In 2017, it was approximately 19,000 USD, a growth rate of 116%. This is not much different than many other OECD countries. (The US was 111%) Secondly, the Agriculture sector you criticized NAFTA for damaging is not true. It is true that as a percentage of the population, the share of Mexicans living in rural areas fell from 33% in the mid-1980s to 23.5% in 2005. However, that trend was occurring since the 1950's where it fell from approximately 50% to the 33% figure I listed earlier (Trade and Agriculture Directorate, OECD). The same report found that poverty and extreme poverty in Mexico has been declining since the 1995-1996 crisis. Finally, the share of the rural employment that is designated to each sector has changed fundamentally in the Mexican economy (id.) In 1999, the percent of the rural employment that was engaged in the primary sector was 62%, in 2007 that number fell to 49.6%. Most of this change was due to the shift of these workers to higher wage secondary and tertiary sectors of the economy, with the rest seeking urban areas. This is not a bad thing. During economic development, an economy first shifts away from agriculture and to industry, and finally to services. Mexico has been making this trend since the 1950s, absent of NAFTA. In fact, even this downward crisis that you describe for the Mexican Agriculture sector, it has not declined that sharply. Between 1988 and 1994, it comprised about 6.5% of the Mexican GDP, whereas between 2000 and 2006, it comprised approximately 5.6% of the GDP.
Next, another economic development theory that research from both sides of the aisle agrees on, is the benefit that corporations moving into a country provides. People follow the wages, and factories provide higher wages then what the native businesses can provide. This is why people work in so-called "sweatshops." Industrialization, due to NAFTA is making the Mexican economy and its citizenry wealthier.
Finally, on the topic of exploitation. You associate immigration with the institution of slavery. Not only is this offensive to those whose ancestors were slaves and to those presently in different forms of slavery across the globe, it is also untrue. Slavery is coercive labor. There is little, to any, corporations that actually force people into the shops, and under penalty of violence, force the laborers to work. In fact, I can not think of one that I know off the top of my head. Situational coercion is not slavery, as the individual has a choice. They can move to the United States and accept a low par wage that is higher than what they can obtain in their home (because it's a poor country) or they can stay and earn less.
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Post by wvamerican on May 16, 2018 23:51:51 GMT -5
One final response about Mexico. Most of the reasons you listed for the fall of the Mexican farmer were government related. First, the Mexican government was subsidizing agriculture. This distorted prices and caused a misallocation of resources. Secondly, after the implementation of NAFTA, Mexican agricultural goods were not competitive with American agricultural goods due to American subsidies, which I oppose. Thirdly, illegal immigrants are unable to obtain access to productivity enhancing services. Economist Benjamin Powell in his book Out of Poverty, finds that immigrants from poor countries increase their productivity by 4-6 times when immigrating to a wealthy country. Further, it should be known that I'm referring to and always have been referring to legal immigration. I do not, nor will I ever support, illegal immigration. I have stated that I want to militarize the border to provide true security. Fourth, the reason American businesses prefer immigrants over native-born citizens is due to the minimum wage. The free market sets a wage for each industry based on the supply and demand for labor. When the government sets an artificial price, a surplus of labor results, or unemployment. When an influx of cheap labor occurs, via illegal immigration, employers can meet the market equilibrium by hiring illegals. Get rid of the minimum wage and you eliminate this problem. Finally, there is a correlation between a nation's economic freedom and its overall wealth. Mexico, according to the Economic Freedom Index done by the Heritage Center, Mexico ranked 63rd. For perspective, Mexico ranked behind Jordan, Turkey, Rwanda, and Columbia.
Now, to your next point about the impact that immigration (and again I'm referring to legal immigration, I do not support illegal immigration), the Federal Reserve found that immigration has no statistically significant impact on American labor. Neither in the short-term nor the late-term do immigrants "crowd-out" American workers. Further, there was no evidence to suggest that immigrants reduce American hours. The Federal Reserve did find that in the long-term, an increase in immigration equal to 1% of the employment, increases real wages by 0.6% to 0.9%. Finally, the Federal Reserve found the same phenomenon that I was explaining. Immigrants tend to take lower-paid positions that are based in manual labor while Native Americans prefer jobs based in communication, where English becomes more profitable. Hispanic immigrants aren't replacing Americans, because Americans prefer higher paid jobs.
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Post by wvamerican on May 17, 2018 0:10:25 GMT -5
Finally, economists Ronald Lee and Timothy Miller found that immigrants have a net contribution of $32.4 billion overall, $28.2 billion to the federal government, and $4.2 billion to the states and local governments. To my previously stated research, the property values were all counties, not just Asians, for all immigrants. The 21% figure was Lewis, 2009; the property value figure was Saiz, 2007; the aggregate increase in revenue was Vigdor, 2013; the Medicaid figure was Ku and Bruen, 2013; the welfare statistics were Skinner, 2012; The LA and health figures were Goldman, 2006. He also found that 27% of legal immigrants, 19% of illegal immigrants, and 38% of natives had a chronic health problem (which accounts for three-quarters of all healthcare spending. He further found that 21% of all health expenditures for natives were government expenditures. That figure was only 16% for immigrants. The unfunded liabilities for Medicare and Social Security were by Zallman, 2013 and Gustman and Steinmeier, 2000. All of these citations are academic articles within economic journals.
To summarize, I do not agree with you that there exists such a thing as collective rights and that these rights triumph individual rights. For that sets a dangerous precedent for how powerful the majority can be at the expense of the minority. For example, an individual has the right to freely exercise religion. However, the collective, through majority rule, would also have the right to freely choose which religion should be exercised; and therefore establish laws preventing the individual from exercising in opposition. Another example, an individual has the right to bear arms to secure themselves and their property. The collective has the right to choose not to exercise this right. Now the individual can no longer protect themselves.
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Post by wvamerican on May 17, 2018 0:14:21 GMT -5
Further, I am not a neoconservative. I disapprove of the current policy in Syria, of intervention in Libya, of the Iraq War and the prolonged nation building of Afghanistan, and escalating tensions in Ukraine. I disapprove of the interventions in Korea and in Vietnam. I disagree with our entry into World War I and believe that American foreign policy helped cause World War II. I believe that the United States should not use military force unless directly attacked. If that event should occur, I believe in following the Constitution and having the president ask for a declaration of war. At the same time, I am not an isolationist. The United States needs to trade with the rest of the world and we need to be observant of our neighbors. But to claim that I am a neoconservative is incorrect. I have written frequently against the philosophy.
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Post by Source on May 18, 2018 17:29:59 GMT -5
One final response about Mexico. Most of the reasons you listed for the fall of the Mexican farmer were government related. First, the Mexican government was subsidizing agriculture. This distorted prices and caused a misallocation of resources. Secondly, after the implementation of NAFTA, Mexican agricultural goods were not competitive with American agricultural goods due to American subsidies, which I oppose. Thirdly, illegal immigrants are unable to obtain access to productivity enhancing services. Economist Benjamin Powell in his book Out of Poverty, finds that immigrants from poor countries increase their productivity by 4-6 times when immigrating to a wealthy country. Further, it should be known that I'm referring to and always have been referring to legal immigration. I do not, nor will I ever support, illegal immigration. I have stated that I want to militarize the border to provide true security. Fourth, the reason American businesses prefer immigrants over native-born citizens is due to the minimum wage. The free market sets a wage for each industry based on the supply and demand for labor. When the government sets an artificial price, a surplus of labor results, or unemployment. When an influx of cheap labor occurs, via illegal immigration, employers can meet the market equilibrium by hiring illegals. Get rid of the minimum wage and you eliminate this problem. Finally, there is a correlation between a nation's economic freedom and its overall wealth. Mexico, according to the Economic Freedom Index done by the Heritage Center, Mexico ranked 63rd. For perspective, Mexico ranked behind Jordan, Turkey, Rwanda, and Columbia. Now, to your next point about the impact that immigration (and again I'm referring to legal immigration, I do not support illegal immigration), the Federal Reserve found that immigration has no statistically significant impact on American labor. Neither in the short-term nor the late-term do immigrants "crowd-out" American workers. Further, there was no evidence to suggest that immigrants reduce American hours. The Federal Reserve did find that in the long-term, an increase in immigration equal to 1% of the employment, increases real wages by 0.6% to 0.9%. Finally, the Federal Reserve found the same phenomenon that I was explaining. Immigrants tend to take lower-paid positions that are based in manual labor while Native Americans prefer jobs based in communication, where English becomes more profitable. Hispanic immigrants aren't replacing Americans, because Americans prefer higher paid jobs. Do you believe that part of our immigration problem is the fact that immigrants are refusing to assimilate? Or do you believe that they are assimilating just fine?
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Post by Source on May 18, 2018 17:47:51 GMT -5
wvamerican I'm also curious why you don't like neoconservatism. I consider myself an odd mix between neoconservatism (For the interventionist/nation-building foreign policy), and Libertarian (For more states rights and other domestic issues). An odd mix, I know. Hahaha!
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Post by wvamerican on May 18, 2018 21:34:15 GMT -5
Data shows that first-generation immigrants tend to not fully assimilate. However, second and third generation immigrants tend to assimilate very well. I don't necessarily think we have a problem with immigrants themselves.
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Post by wvamerican on May 19, 2018 18:18:10 GMT -5
I disagree with nation-building. I believe it tends to ignore the culture of the region we're in, I believe it's a violation of the nation's sovereignty, and I think we have a poor track record with it. Regarding interventionism, I believe that historically our interventions have created more problems or have been more problematic than the reason we intervened in the first place (i.e. Iran '53, Vietnam 60's and 70's, and Iraq '03).
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Post by Daniel on May 5, 2020 19:15:35 GMT -5
Pergunta 1: O VC passou de quase 100 membros ativos no pico, para 50 recentemente, agora para 25 neste novo site. Como você atrairá mais membros para um novo vc? Divulgaria,sou brasileiro e sei que divulgando esse site varios brasileiros se interessariam em participar desse prazeroso site
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Post by Globalmed Supplies on Jul 10, 2022 3:54:51 GMT -5
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